TV and Movie Chat
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Ancalagon
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Found a little segment on YT with Catherine Tate who for one season played a companion to The Doctor when David Tennant was in the role. Laugh out loud moments here...
“Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” - Carl Sagan
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Necron 99
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Amazon's Rings of Power
Moving the discussion of Amazon's Rings of Power series here, instead of continuing in the Tolkien section, because frankly, I don't think this belongs there.
Based on the posters for the series, showing off characters and rings, there's been backlash and concern that the new series is going to carry too many modern tropes to be a faithful adaptation to Tolkien's work. After watching some videos and doing some Googling on the cast, I ran across an article on Yahoo that talks about the reaction from Amazon, to their critics.
You can read the entire article: HERE.
From the article:
Just because someone thinks they can, doesn't mean they should. Tolkien's work has been established WAY before any progressive movement of the current 2000s came along. Jackson already caught a little flack for switching out characters in LotR (expanding the role of Arwen and removing Glorfindel), but, he didn't completely take liberties with Tolkien's work (at least not in LotR, the Hobbit trilogy was the complete opposite). He utilized a character within the story, expanding her role since she was a character that had a meaningful relationship with one of the main characters, that being Aragorn.
With this new series, they are making it a point to have modern agendas, front and center. And with that said, it brings me to the next issue.
Who is Mariana Rios Maldonado? I have never heard of her and most likely, no one else has either. I was highly skeptical that she was anything close to a "Tolkien scholar" as the article mentions, so I did some digging and this is what I found.
Tolkien has established in his work, locales such as Harad, of course it's perfectly fine to have characters from somewhere like that. Arguing this like she does, is like saying that the established book and movie Roots, should remove the majority of black characters, and replace them with latino and asian characters or characters from the alphabet community, just for the sake of representation and diversity. It would be just utterly ridiculous.
The article continues on talking about how diverse the show will be, giving examples such as featuring the "first Black elf" and "a Black dwarven princess", and "a multicultural, indigenous, TRIBE of hobbits", along with "a very strong female presence" and "35 cast members of varying ethnic backgrounds"...
I think this video sums up my thoughts on the matter. She hits the valid points, spot on, and makes good arguments for why true fans of Tolkien's works should/would be apprehensive about the new series.
Moving the discussion of Amazon's Rings of Power series here, instead of continuing in the Tolkien section, because frankly, I don't think this belongs there.
Based on the posters for the series, showing off characters and rings, there's been backlash and concern that the new series is going to carry too many modern tropes to be a faithful adaptation to Tolkien's work. After watching some videos and doing some Googling on the cast, I ran across an article on Yahoo that talks about the reaction from Amazon, to their critics.
You can read the entire article: HERE.
From the article:
So, first off, I have a problem with the statement, "Tolkien is for everyone". Yes, his STORIES are for everyone, just like any other story, movie, song, or form of entertainment. Anyone can read them, anyone can enjoy them. But here, she's using it as a blanket statement (because literally you could replace 'Tolkien' with just about anything) and claim it's for everyone so therefore it should be more progressive. This is literally the same thing WotC did with D&D. "D&D is for everyone, therefore, we're going to add x, y, and z, and change a, b, and c."In a first-look profile of Amazon’s eagerly anticipated The Lord of the Rings TV series, The Rings of Power, the project’s creative team had some words about online trolls who have been outraged that the show will feature a far more diverse cast than Peter Jackson’s trilogy of films.
“It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of [author J.R.R.] Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like,” Lindsey Weber, an executive producer of the series, told Vanity Fair, which also has several new photos from the series. “Tolkien is for everyone. His stories are about his fictional races doing their best work when they leave the isolation of their own cultures and come together.”
Added Tolkien scholar Mariana Rios Maldonado, “Who are these people that feel so threatened or disgusted by the idea that an elf is Black or Latino or Asian?”
Just because someone thinks they can, doesn't mean they should. Tolkien's work has been established WAY before any progressive movement of the current 2000s came along. Jackson already caught a little flack for switching out characters in LotR (expanding the role of Arwen and removing Glorfindel), but, he didn't completely take liberties with Tolkien's work (at least not in LotR, the Hobbit trilogy was the complete opposite). He utilized a character within the story, expanding her role since she was a character that had a meaningful relationship with one of the main characters, that being Aragorn.
With this new series, they are making it a point to have modern agendas, front and center. And with that said, it brings me to the next issue.
Who is Mariana Rios Maldonado? I have never heard of her and most likely, no one else has either. I was highly skeptical that she was anything close to a "Tolkien scholar" as the article mentions, so I did some digging and this is what I found.
And, I was correct. She's a nobody. She's a graduate student with a thesis, pushing progressive agendas into Tolkien's work. Far from what I consider a "Tolkien scholar" that's for sure. The reason people are upset over the idea of having "black, asian, or latino" elves, is because those ethnicities are integral to our REAL world. They are not integral to Tolkien's FICTIONAL world. A fictional world can have as many, as little, or absolutely no, REAL world ethnicities. So yes, there can be, and are, people who take offense to the assumption that there "should" be representation and diversity in an established fictional setting just because they want to "fix" what they deem wrong, based on real world ideology.Mariana Rios Maldonado
PositionsMaldonado completed her undergraduate studies in Literature and Spanish Linguistics at the Autonomous University of Zacatecas, Mexico, and her master’s degree in Comparative Literature at the Peter Szondi Institute in Berlin’s Freie Universität. Her research focuses on the influence of Germanic mythology and culture in contemporary literature, Germanophonic fantastic literature between the 18th and 20th centuries, as well as J.R.R. Tolkien’s literary production. Mariana is currently a PhD candidate in Comparative Literature at the School of Modern Languages and Cultures of the University of Glasgow with the research project “Ethics, Femininity and the Encounter with the Other in J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth Narratives”, funded by the Mexican National Council for Science and Technology (CONACYT) as well as Mexico’s National Foundation for Fine Arts and Literature (Fundación INBA). She is the Equality and Diversity Officer for the University of Glasgow’s Centre for Fantasy and the Fantastic.
- Graduate Teaching Assistant; Postgraduate research student, University of Glasgow
- Equality and Diversity Officer, Centre for Fantasy and the Fantastic, University of Glasgow
Tolkien has established in his work, locales such as Harad, of course it's perfectly fine to have characters from somewhere like that. Arguing this like she does, is like saying that the established book and movie Roots, should remove the majority of black characters, and replace them with latino and asian characters or characters from the alphabet community, just for the sake of representation and diversity. It would be just utterly ridiculous.
The article continues on talking about how diverse the show will be, giving examples such as featuring the "first Black elf" and "a Black dwarven princess", and "a multicultural, indigenous, TRIBE of hobbits", along with "a very strong female presence" and "35 cast members of varying ethnic backgrounds"...
I think this video sums up my thoughts on the matter. She hits the valid points, spot on, and makes good arguments for why true fans of Tolkien's works should/would be apprehensive about the new series.
“He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.” - Fellowship of the Ring, J.R.R. Tolkien
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Ancalagon
- Level 8: Noble
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Ugh. This should be so easy... not just for the Rings of Power series but for ANY adaptation of author's works that have stood the test of time for generations: DON'T FUCK WITH THE SOURCE MATERIAL.
“Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” - Carl Sagan
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Necron 99
- Level 8: Noble
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- Location: Jacksonville, FL
Right?
Well, the hellstorm of all this is picking up steam pretty damn quick. I caught several vids hitting my recommends on YT, just this afternoon and even just now, even Critical Drinker has chimed in.
“He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.” - Fellowship of the Ring, J.R.R. Tolkien
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Necron 99
- Level 8: Noble
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- Location: Jacksonville, FL
Drinker at it again, even more dog pile onto TRoP.
“He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.” - Fellowship of the Ring, J.R.R. Tolkien
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Deil the Yin
Awww. Iz paw widdle Cwiddikul Dwinkuh twigguwd by der mean-ol wokey-wokeys? Awww.
In the immortal yet ever-toxic words of the "Critical Drinker" himself: tough shit.
Otherwise, I'm kinda gettin' stoked to see this now (after watching some actually objective assessments), especially since it's not HBO giving Tolkien the GoT treatment. I'm no Tolkien scholar, so a lot of the heresy will probably go over my head, allowing me to enjoy the show for whatever it is. And since I'm not a fascist rules lawyer who thinks they have the right to attach arbitrary requirements for converting to the silver screen a literary work of fiction which I had absolutely no hand in creating nor to which I have any legal copyright authority, it'll also be a lot easier to enjoy the artistic license of the producers.
No doubt it could very well be akin to watching The Hobbit "trilogy": I definitely rolled my eyes at some of the ridiculous physics-defying stunts and story addendums (and to some others I winced in pain), but overall enjoyed seeing the high production quality of Peter Jackson's interpretation. It definitely raised the bar IMO, so maybe when someone like the Critical Drinker decides to put his money where his mouth is, we'll get a truly incredible rendition of our beloved The Hobbit. Or I can always go back to the 70's era animated version, which I still love (and chose to watch on Hobbit-day this past year).
Whatever.
In the immortal yet ever-toxic words of the "Critical Drinker" himself: tough shit.
Otherwise, I'm kinda gettin' stoked to see this now (after watching some actually objective assessments), especially since it's not HBO giving Tolkien the GoT treatment. I'm no Tolkien scholar, so a lot of the heresy will probably go over my head, allowing me to enjoy the show for whatever it is. And since I'm not a fascist rules lawyer who thinks they have the right to attach arbitrary requirements for converting to the silver screen a literary work of fiction which I had absolutely no hand in creating nor to which I have any legal copyright authority, it'll also be a lot easier to enjoy the artistic license of the producers.
No doubt it could very well be akin to watching The Hobbit "trilogy": I definitely rolled my eyes at some of the ridiculous physics-defying stunts and story addendums (and to some others I winced in pain), but overall enjoyed seeing the high production quality of Peter Jackson's interpretation. It definitely raised the bar IMO, so maybe when someone like the Critical Drinker decides to put his money where his mouth is, we'll get a truly incredible rendition of our beloved The Hobbit. Or I can always go back to the 70's era animated version, which I still love (and chose to watch on Hobbit-day this past year).
Whatever.
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Ancalagon
- Level 8: Noble
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Drinker was definitely more articulate and thorough in his explanation but it's what I meant by Don't Fuck with the Source Material.
“Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” - Carl Sagan
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Necron 99
- Level 8: Noble
- Posts: 2041
- Joined: December 5th, 2018, 1:43 pm
- Location: Jacksonville, FL
I had seen a few other clips and even some articles discussing this same topic. That Amazon didn't actually get the rights to do the "real" Tolkien stuff. If I had to guess, this is probably the reason that Shippey and Amazon parted ways and they hired on someone else to push as "the scholar". Since he was essentially representing the Tolkien Estate, I figure Amazon pitched their ideas, Shippey and the Tolkien Estate either didn't concur, or didn't feel it represented Tolkien's work authentically and said Amazon could do "something", but it wasn't going to be considered anything equal to Tolkien's cannon.
Either way, the track record for Amazon with book has been so-so. Jen and I tried to watch their Wheel of Time series, but only got into it about 4-5 episodes. It wasn't bad, but it didn't really have anything substantial to hold our attention. Having not read any of the books, I can't really speak as to how it reflects or deviates from the cannon, but I've seen enough comment and ranting online to know that the same progressive hammer was taken to that one too, fans weren't really thrilled with it either.
At some point I may revisit it and continue watching.
“He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.” - Fellowship of the Ring, J.R.R. Tolkien
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Deil the Yin
What? How is this even plausible? If the Tolkien Estate wouldn't let TSR use the term "Hobbit," they certainly wouldn't let a company make millions from pages upon pages of copyrighted material of the Tolkien universe. 
Necron 99 wrote: ↑February 18th, 2022, 7:04 am I had seen a few other clips and even some articles discussing this same topic. That Amazon didn't actually get the rights to do the "real" Tolkien stuff. If I had to guess, this is probably the reason that Shippey and Amazon parted ways and they hired on someone else to push as "the scholar". Since he was essentially representing the Tolkien Estate, I figure Amazon pitched their ideas, Shippey and the Tolkien Estate either didn't concur, or didn't feel it represented Tolkien's work authentically and said Amazon could do "something", but it wasn't going to be considered anything equal to Tolkien's cannon.