I'm working to develop a hybrid class using the C&C Class-and-a-half rules. The historical warrior class in question uses what is essentially a pole-axe called a Sparth axe- by all accounts a development from the Viking "Danish Axe". Wikipedia lists both the Danish Axe and the Sparth Axe in its article on Pole Weapon (or Pole Arm) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_weapon.
So my query is: as certain C&C classes list "pole arm" as a weapon proficiency, what would be the best rule of thumb for best defining a "pole arm" in Castles&Crusades? More specifically, could I equate the C&C "Axe, Two-handed" as a "pole arm?"
Thanks!
Aye,
Wesley
QUERY: Polearms in Castles&Crusades...
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Ancalagon
- Level 8: Noble
- Posts: 1691
- Joined: December 5th, 2018, 5:42 pm
- Location: Bellevue, NE
I took a peek at the C&C Arms & Armor supplement to see what was said about polearms and found this:
In general a pole arm is a weapon mounted on a long haft. Many were variations of farming implements and allowed foot soldiers greater reach on the battlefield, particularly in battles with mounted opponents. Their purposes are manifold, from unseating an opponent to pinning them. They are generally easy to produce.
The two-handed axe was not included in the list of polearms but was grouped with other axes in the Arms & Armor supplement on p.35 and described as follows: This battle axe consists of a head with a long crescent shaped blade roughly 20” in length with a flat butt. The handle is straight or slightly curved at the bottom and measures 5’ in length. The axe is designed for chopping or cutting. It weighs about 4.5lbs. This is a generic term used to describe axes used with both hands.
In the C&C Adventurer's Backpack supplement, a section on polearms begins on p.68 which begins with the following: The polearm is basically a blade, point, prong, hammer or other flourish attached to the end of a pole. There is a section about parts of the polearms. On p.68 it states the axe head on a polearm was primarily used to chop down and through armor. Axe heads could be short and light or long and thick. Axe headed attacks deal the damage listed for the polearm. That last sentence doesn't make a lot of sense.
Since the two-handed axe is not grouped with polearms in C&C, if you want to make a version of the two-handed axe into a polearm, I recommend lengthening the haft and altering the encumbrance value (EV) of the weapon. Hope this helps!
In general a pole arm is a weapon mounted on a long haft. Many were variations of farming implements and allowed foot soldiers greater reach on the battlefield, particularly in battles with mounted opponents. Their purposes are manifold, from unseating an opponent to pinning them. They are generally easy to produce.
The two-handed axe was not included in the list of polearms but was grouped with other axes in the Arms & Armor supplement on p.35 and described as follows: This battle axe consists of a head with a long crescent shaped blade roughly 20” in length with a flat butt. The handle is straight or slightly curved at the bottom and measures 5’ in length. The axe is designed for chopping or cutting. It weighs about 4.5lbs. This is a generic term used to describe axes used with both hands.
In the C&C Adventurer's Backpack supplement, a section on polearms begins on p.68 which begins with the following: The polearm is basically a blade, point, prong, hammer or other flourish attached to the end of a pole. There is a section about parts of the polearms. On p.68 it states the axe head on a polearm was primarily used to chop down and through armor. Axe heads could be short and light or long and thick. Axe headed attacks deal the damage listed for the polearm. That last sentence doesn't make a lot of sense.
Since the two-handed axe is not grouped with polearms in C&C, if you want to make a version of the two-handed axe into a polearm, I recommend lengthening the haft and altering the encumbrance value (EV) of the weapon. Hope this helps!
“Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” - Carl Sagan
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Deil the Yin
Cheers for that awesome reply, Lord Gill! I happened to run across my digital copy of the "Arms&Armour" supplement after I made the OP, and am quite discouraged by this 2018 publication due to it's sloppy information and serious conflict with what it already in the PHB, eg "battle axe" in the PHB does 1d8dmg while the A&A relegate it to 1d4. Seriously!? WTF Trolls Lords... Unfortunately this is not a big surprise from Troll Lord Games. Still my fave FRPG, but...just sayin'. I have generally found the earlier (2010 or 2008?) "C&C: Castellan's Guide to Arms & Armour" to be a more useable supplement.
So, it seems to me like the "pole arm" distinction is mainly academic, realistically. The PHB and Arms&Armour supplement classification/description of the "Two-handed Axe" certainly fits the bill for the "Sparth Axe" in my opinion. And since the Sparth was frequently used en masse according to my sources, I'm glad to allow it as a "pole arm" for this specific class. I suppose I'll have to broach the topic with the CK on a case by case basis when approaching it from the player's side.
Thanks again for the input!
Aye,
Wesley
PS: I was thinking that this line here below is implying- in the standard Troll Lords obtuse manner, that an axe blade on a pole arm that has multiple blade types, eg a spike, spear blade etc, doesn't give an alternative damage if the player declares they are using the pole arm specifically to chop with the axe head... if that makes sense? I'm thinking of "pole arms" such as the bill-hook and halberd, which are essentially used as chopping weapons (much like a Sparth axe, coincidentally), and also have spikes for thrusting and hooks or beaks for punching through armour or dismount an opponent.
Good stuff, eh wot!
So, it seems to me like the "pole arm" distinction is mainly academic, realistically. The PHB and Arms&Armour supplement classification/description of the "Two-handed Axe" certainly fits the bill for the "Sparth Axe" in my opinion. And since the Sparth was frequently used en masse according to my sources, I'm glad to allow it as a "pole arm" for this specific class. I suppose I'll have to broach the topic with the CK on a case by case basis when approaching it from the player's side.
Thanks again for the input!
Aye,
Wesley
PS: I was thinking that this line here below is implying- in the standard Troll Lords obtuse manner, that an axe blade on a pole arm that has multiple blade types, eg a spike, spear blade etc, doesn't give an alternative damage if the player declares they are using the pole arm specifically to chop with the axe head... if that makes sense? I'm thinking of "pole arms" such as the bill-hook and halberd, which are essentially used as chopping weapons (much like a Sparth axe, coincidentally), and also have spikes for thrusting and hooks or beaks for punching through armour or dismount an opponent.
Good stuff, eh wot!
Ancalagon wrote: ↑April 27th, 2020, 12:01 am I took a peek at the C&C Arms & Armor supplement to see what was said about polearms and found this:
... Axe heads could be short and light or long and thick. Axe headed attacks deal the damage listed for the polearm.[/i] That last sentence doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Ancalagon
- Level 8: Noble
- Posts: 1691
- Joined: December 5th, 2018, 5:42 pm
- Location: Bellevue, NE
Yer welcome, Lord Walker!Deil the Yin wrote: ↑April 27th, 2020, 12:57 pm Cheers for that awesome reply, Lord Gill! I happened to run across my digital copy of the "Arms&Armour" supplement after I made the OP, and am quite discouraged by this 2018 publication due to it's sloppy information and serious conflict with what it already in the PHB, eg "battle axe" in the PHB does 1d8dmg while the A&A relegate it to 1d4. Seriously!? WTF Trolls Lords... Unfortunately this is not a big surprise from Troll Lord Games. Still my fave FRPG, but...just sayin'. I have generally found the earlier (2010 or 2008?) "C&C: Castellan's Guide to Arms & Armour" to be a more useable supplement.
So, it seems to me like the "pole arm" distinction is mainly academic, realistically. The PHB and Arms&Armour supplement classification/description of the "Two-handed Axe" certainly fits the bill for the "Sparth Axe" in my opinion. And since the Sparth was frequently used en masse according to my sources, I'm glad to allow it as a "pole arm" for this specific class. I suppose I'll have to broach the topic with the CK on a case by case basis when approaching it from the player's side.
Thanks again for the input!
Aye,
Wesley
The Trolls made a great game... but could never be confused with being great editors.
“Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” - Carl Sagan
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Deil the Yin
Ha. Aint that the truth...
By the way, I am planning to post my hybrid class creations once they are fleshed out, though probably in a different thread. So stay tuned...
Aye,
Wesley
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Captain_Blood
- Level 5: Delver
- Posts: 243
- Joined: December 10th, 2018, 10:21 pm
Remember that C&C is a fantasy game. When I place 2-handed Ax in that context I envision something like Gimli's Ax from LOTR.
As you ca see, even if you reduce John Rhys-Davies height to that of Gimli (roughly 4'6"), the haft of that ax makes it as tall as him. At John Rhys-Davies 6'1" that haft is easily 5' plus. It's still a close melee weapon and not a pole arm. The pole arm in C&C is something that gives superior reach and the ability to attack something 10 feet away from you (as a medium creature). Something like a halberd, spear, or billhook fits that description perfectly, where as a long-sword is effectively a pole arm for a hobbit. So in C&C terms any non-ranged weapon that effectively doubles your melee attack range should be considered a pole-arm for the wielder.
As you ca see, even if you reduce John Rhys-Davies height to that of Gimli (roughly 4'6"), the haft of that ax makes it as tall as him. At John Rhys-Davies 6'1" that haft is easily 5' plus. It's still a close melee weapon and not a pole arm. The pole arm in C&C is something that gives superior reach and the ability to attack something 10 feet away from you (as a medium creature). Something like a halberd, spear, or billhook fits that description perfectly, where as a long-sword is effectively a pole arm for a hobbit. So in C&C terms any non-ranged weapon that effectively doubles your melee attack range should be considered a pole-arm for the wielder.
“May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.” -Malcom Reynolds
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Deil the Yin
I totally see your point from the meta-gaming standpoint. However, realistically, neither a halberd nor a bill will allow you to attack a target from 10' away as they both have virtually the same hafted length as a "two-handed axe." The only real difference that I see is in the bill and halberd having (or potentially having) spear points that allow them to be used en masse in certain actions, as opposed to only as hacking weapons. Also realistically, I think it's critical to note that a "pole" arm is hafted, as opposed to a sword. But generally a very good point about the reach of the weapon...
Thanks for the input!
Cheers,
Wesley
Thanks for the input!
Cheers,
Wesley
Captain_Blood wrote: ↑May 14th, 2020, 8:42 pm Remember that C&C is a fantasy game. When I place 2-handed Ax in that context I envision something like Gimli's Ax from LOTR.
As you ca see, even if you reduce John Rhys-Davies height to that of Gimli (roughly 4'6"), the haft of that ax makes it as tall as him. At John Rhys-Davies 6'1" that haft is easily 5' plus. It's still a close melee weapon and not a pole arm. The pole arm in C&C is something that gives superior reach and the ability to attack something 10 feet away from you (as a medium creature). Something like a halberd, spear, or billhook fits that description perfectly, where as a long-sword is effectively a pole arm for a hobbit. So in C&C terms any non-ranged weapon that effectively doubles your melee attack range should be considered a pole-arm for the wielder.
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Deil the Yin
Awesome piccie, by the way! Kudos for picking out Gimli.
Captain_Blood wrote: ↑May 14th, 2020, 8:42 pm Remember that C&C is a fantasy game. When I place 2-handed Ax in that context I envision something like Gimli's Ax from LOTR.
As you ca see, even if you reduce John Rhys-Davies height to that of Gimli (roughly 4'6"), the haft of that ax makes it as tall as him. At John Rhys-Davies 6'1" that haft is easily 5' plus. It's still a close melee weapon and not a pole arm. The pole arm in C&C is something that gives superior reach and the ability to attack something 10 feet away from you (as a medium creature). Something like a halberd, spear, or billhook fits that description perfectly, where as a long-sword is effectively a pole arm for a hobbit. So in C&C terms any non-ranged weapon that effectively doubles your melee attack range should be considered a pole-arm for the wielder.