House Rules for my C&C campaign

[Ancalagon]

Since we discussed Perception in C&C while at MC West, it was one of the topics rolling around in my head during the flight home.

@Necron 99 - you mentioned possibly incorporating the INT, WIS, and DEX attributes for use with perception so I'm throwing this out there for discussion, modification, etc. for use as a possible House Rule in campaign and / or convention play. From a system mechanics standpoint, I put those attributes together as follows:

1. If all 3 attributes are Primary, the basic target number is 12 like normal. Roll d20 + the character's level + the best modifier of the three.

2. If only 1 or 2 attributes are Primary, the basic target number is 15. Roll d20 + the character's level + the best modifier of the three.

3. If none of the attributes are Primary (all Secondary), the basic target number is 18 like normal. Roll d20 + the character's level + the best modifier of the three.

What say ye?

[Necron 99]

Welp, the more I thought about perception, the more I realized if I can't find something logical, I might not implement anything at all. The reason for this is because with attributes tied to primary and secondary stats, humans would potentially, be better at perception checks than any demi-humans. This didn't sit right with me, seeing as how much more perceptive elves and dwarves usually are (i.e. spot secret doors, stonework traps, etc.).

Elves have always been depicted as more perceptive since the era of Tolkien, better sight, hearing, etc. In C&C, humans have three primes, while demi-humans only two. This means that a human character could have 3 prime stats all tied to perception, which demi-humans would never achieve based on the mechanics for stats.

At this point, I still don't know how I'd implement it, going to have to give it more thought. I know I still don't like using Wisdom as the sole determinant for perception checks so I'll figure something out.

[Ancalagon]

Maybe elves just get an automatic target number 12 for the reasons you mentioned. It could be one of the elven racial features like improved chances to locate concealed and secret doors.

[Ancalagon]

Maybe elves just get an automatic target number 12 for the reasons you mentioned. It could be one of the elven racial features like improved chances to locate concealed and secret doors.

The best modifier of the 3 attributes (INT, WIS, DEX) would still apply to checks, I'm thinking. Thoughts?

[Necron 99]

Maybe elves just get an automatic target number 12 for the reasons you mentioned. It could be one of the elven racial features like improved chances to locate concealed and secret doors.

Possibly, or I may just scrap the entire idea and just go the old school route of not having an actual perception roll. Base everything off of what players tell me the characters are doing. If they examine something, and describe it well enough, then they just find obscure or hidden things. If they just say, "I look around the room", well, that won't cut it.

The only hangup will be for characters when it comes to being surprised, as during an ambush or attack. C&C defaults to WIS checks, which again, is a perception check and then we're back to the same issue. I thought about just ignoring any SIEGE checks and just use a d6 like old D&D.

As for modifier, yeah, the easiest thing would probably be to take the single, highest stat bonus from the three.

[Ancalagon]

Maybe elves just get an automatic target number 12 for the reasons you mentioned. It could be one of the elven racial features like improved chances to locate concealed and secret doors.

Possibly, or I may just scrap the entire idea and just go the old school route of not having an actual perception roll. Base everything off of what players tell me the characters are doing. If they examine something, and describe it well enough, then they just find obscure or hidden things. If they just say, "I look around the room", well, that won't cut it.

Emphasis mine.
Yeah. That works, too. Put the onus on the players to describe things well enough to make any detection sound reasonable.
I did this with the guys running JP in the C&C games. "I check for traps."
"How? What measures are you taking?" I asked them. One player was completely off-balance with this while the other saw what I was aiming at and adjusted.

The only hangup will be for characters when it comes to being surprised, as during an ambush or attack. C&C defaults to WIS checks, which again, is a perception check and then we're back to the same issue. I thought about just ignoring any SIEGE checks and just use a d6 like old D&D.

Emphasis mine.
The SIEGE Engine is nifty but doesn't necessarily need to be a universal mechanic. I like the notion of using the AD&D d6 roll with DEX mod applied for surprise determination. Good call.

As for modifier, yeah, the easiest thing would probably be to take the single, highest stat bonus from the three.

If I incorporate a Perception ability in my House Rules, I'll go that route.

[Vandack]

Late to the discussion, but - I like the dialogue about it and agree about the onus being upon the player to articulate how they go about something (thus adjusting the CL for the ultimate target number).

If you were to drop DEX from the list, you are back to INT and WIS (and more importantly, 2 attributes) granting all classes the same opportunity to lock in "perception primes". You could incorporate the DEX bonus to keep it in the mix (depending on what the perception roll is for perhaps?). However, I disagree with using DEX in perception. To me DEX is a bit more about reaction vs. perceiving, or perhaps better stated: reacting to what one has perceived (especially if something physical). I understand the argument for it but I guess I see it like this:

Two individuals are standing around a busy street corner engaged in discussion. They both have an opportunity to perceive the arrow that has been fired from the building top across the street toward them. A perception check is rolled. Perhaps they both pass (maybe one thanks to an INT prime, the other thanks to a WIS prime). Since they perceived, they can react and this is where DEX plays a role. One is not dexterous, the other is very much so. A SIEGE roll is made and the reactions play out as any other SIEGE check would allow.

At any rate, I'd steer clear of getting too complicated about it. KISS baby!!! So, somehow manage to incorporate SIEGE without over-complicating or simply go with the d6 mechanic which works reasonably well. Disclaimer: - I haven't done the math to calculate the differences, statistically, in the chances of success on a d6 perception roll versus my, or any other, SIEGE based rolls suggested above.

[Necron 99]

Yeah, at this point I think I'm just going to go with player prompting for the majority of "perception". If a player gives solid details as to how they are examining something then I'll probably just have the player make either an INT or WIS check (up to the player depending on which is better) to see if the character can puzzle out what they are seeing. In the event of an ambush, I'm just going to ask for a DEX roll to see if they can react or if they are surprised.

Like you said, just going to try and keep it simple.

[Ancalagon]

Late to the discussion, but - I like the dialogue about it and agree about the onus being upon the player to articulate how they go about something (thus adjusting the CL for the ultimate target number).

If you were to drop DEX from the list, you are back to INT and WIS (and more importantly, 2 attributes) granting all classes the same opportunity to lock in "perception primes". You could incorporate the DEX bonus to keep it in the mix (depending on what the perception roll is for perhaps?). However, I disagree with using DEX in perception. To me DEX is a bit more about reaction vs. perceiving, or perhaps better stated: reacting to what one has perceived (especially if something physical). I understand the argument for it but I guess I see it like this:

Two individuals are standing around a busy street corner engaged in discussion. They both have an opportunity to perceive the arrow that has been fired from the building top across the street toward them. A perception check is rolled. Perhaps they both pass (maybe one thanks to an INT prime, the other thanks to a WIS prime). Since they perceived, they can react and this is where DEX plays a role. One is not dexterous, the other is very much so. A SIEGE roll is made and the reactions play out as any other SIEGE check would allow.

At any rate, I'd steer clear of getting too complicated about it. KISS baby!!! So, somehow manage to incorporate SIEGE without over-complicating or simply go with the d6 mechanic which works reasonably well. Disclaimer: - I haven't done the math to calculate the differences, statistically, in the chances of success on a d6 perception roll versus my, or any other, SIEGE based rolls suggested above.

Underline mine. A little more thought on the topic.

Perhaps try using INT or WIS for the attribute check to allow a little more flexibility.

Also thinking elves could have an automatic target number 12 regardless of INT or WIS being a primary or secondary. The auto 12 would work better for simulating the superior senses of elves from Tolkien's Middle Earth than the generic +2 to certain checks. I've not tried this in game play yet but its rolling around in my head....