Gaming like it's the 1980s...

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Necron 99
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Post April 4th, 2024, 6:47 pm

I've been soul-searching some old-school gaming recently, jetting back to the TSR-era and other systems of the decade. Just one of my many nostalgia trips back to what I consider the pinnacle of table-top gaming. Along my trek, I decided to spend time reading through old magazine issues from back in the day, specifically Dragon and Polyhedron.

The first issue of Polyhedron has a nice interview with Gary in which quite a bit of meta-discussion is had pertaining to AD&D, styles of play, and thoughts from Gary on the hobby at that time. One of the more interesting aspects of the interview was his personal thoughts on conventions, and I think he nails my own feelings when it comes to the differences between the small and large conventions.
RPGA: Skipping over to a wider field of gaming, the Gen Con® convention started "way back when". "Were you there at the conception and the first ones?

EGG: Well, what happened is that the year before the Gen Con convention started, I invited a number of fellows up to my place in Lake Geneva for a gaming session, and as I recall, about a dozen showed up. We played Avalon Hill games, and some miniatures, and so forth. I still have pictures! One of the original fellows there who's still in gaming, actively, is Bill Hoyer. A lot of the others have either disappeared or dropped out, at least, from the active ranks, but Bill and I also belonged to a group called the IFW (International Federation of Wargamers), and I was one of its officers, and Bill was eventually president in a couple of years. I suggested to Bill Speer and Scott Duncan, who were president and vice president - I don't know, maybe
I was vice-president and Bill was secretary - but anyway, I said "We ought to have an IFW convention". And they said, "Hey, that sounds like a great idea! You're it!"

So I put the first Gen Con event together, and we held it in Horticultural Hall and had about a total attendance of about fifty or sixty hard-core gamers who came from all over the country. We had a Canadian or two there; we had some people from out on the west coast, from the east coast, from Texas. There just weren't too many of us that were aware of each other - then, at least. There were probably more out there, but it was hard to get to them. We did have a lot of walk- throughs, even the first year; the total different people there - I think there was something over 150 at the first Gen Con convention that was run at Horticultural Hall, here in beautiful Lake Geneva.
RPGA: It's sure grown since then. Do you like the way the Gen Con scene has gone? There are mammoth, incredible problems involved these days in handling the thousands of people who show up for the various games.

EGG: It's all right. We had incredible problems handling the fifty people that were there the first year, so we just have more people to deal with. I ran the first one all by myself, virtually, with some people to help me set up. It was a one-day show, and I was there the day before and the day after, first setting up and then taking down and cleaning up. From a personal standpoint I don't like the large ones as well, because you can't possibly know all the people there, and a lot of the feeling of camaraderie is gone...the closeness, the general tenor of things has changed considerably.

On the other hand, it does give a chance for many, many more people to come and see what gaming is all about, get into things, take a look at the new projects that the companies have produced, and meet their friends. I still see a lot of the old timers there, and say " hi" to them. It gives a better exposure to the hobby; in that regard it's great. It allows more competitive gaming; you can have 500-man tournaments, 600-man tournaments, that is marvelous. So I think the big convention is a very good thing, and it's here to stay.

That's why we also run the three small conventions every year, too. And these are more like the old-time Gen Con events - such as the Spring Revel we just had here - because there you recognize the people, and can sit down and talk with them. It's not a mob scene; things are a little chaotic-some of the games don't come off like they should have, or you go change and play in a different room, or play something different - but it's fun, and everybody has a good time, and that's what the small convention's all about.
“He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.” - Fellowship of the Ring, J.R.R. Tolkien

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Post April 4th, 2024, 7:08 pm

Camaraderie. I really like Gary's use of the word in the convention context. A big part of why I like attending with you, Jared, Ben, Sam, etc.
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Post April 4th, 2024, 11:14 pm

Ancalagon wrote: April 4th, 2024, 7:08 pm Camaraderie. I really like Gary's use of the word in the convention context. A big part of why I like attending with you, Jared, Ben, Sam, etc.
Agreed, I'd even extend that to our other acquaintances like Alan, Eli, Handy and NYC crew, and other folks we would usually hang out with at GaryCon. It's a bit ironic to think of GaryCon as it used to be, now hearing Gary's own words in comparison to what GC has grown into now, and the fact that we're lamenting the very thing.
“He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.” - Fellowship of the Ring, J.R.R. Tolkien

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Post April 5th, 2024, 12:10 am

There were some good pics and reminiscences about the earliest GenCons in _The Dreams in Gary’s Basement_, which I watched for the first time last night.

Allan.
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Necron 99
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Post April 5th, 2024, 8:48 am

grodog wrote: April 5th, 2024, 12:10 am There were some good pics and reminiscences about the earliest GenCons in _The Dreams in Gary’s Basement_, which I watched for the first time last night.

Allan.
I don't believe I've watch any of the documentaries or read any of the books that have come out, detailing gaming of yesteryear, although I know there are a few out there. I guess I'm always dubious of these projects because I don't know the folks putting them together and their actual level of knowledge, or lack thereof, of the facts. Good to know, though, thanks.
“He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.” - Fellowship of the Ring, J.R.R. Tolkien

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Post April 5th, 2024, 9:51 am

Continuing the interview with Gary, this question was asked in relation to how Gary felt about changes to D&D among the fans and players of the game, resulting in the need for a more structured version, hence AD&D. Gary's discussion of "house rules" actually struck a chord in me, because a few days ago I was thinking about the game in general and my house rules posted here in Forge and Anvil for AD&D 2nd.

I had been thinking that maybe house rules and extra options just aren't that necessary. Playing by the book keeps the game aligned, as intended, and ensures everyone (assuming they are familiar with the rules) knows what to expect and how to play the game. Of course not all house rules are bad or game changing, but as Gary mentions below, they can have unexpected or unintended ramifications.
RPGA: When the D&D phenomenon first started, of course, there were just a few players. We've been explaining to people how the first set was for hard-core gamers, and then the audience became more widespread. The version written by John Eric Holmes was a little bit easier, and now the latest version is easily understandable by anyone willing just to spend the time to read it. You've made the terms a little blander, and have been getting rid of a lot of the games; in general, improving it for the mass market. Do you like what has happened to the D&D game? I'm sure you like the widespread publicity and the approval it has received, but do you like the directions it has taken?

EGG: (chuckles) If I understand right: I'm not really too fond of the way Dungeons & Dragons games have kind of mutated and changed into very strange exercises. But who can say "nay" to someone who's having a good time with the game? One of the reasons that I was able to throw myself into the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons project with such vigor and put in so many hours and turn it out as quickly as I could, is that I felt that a game was needed that would have more control over its audience, and one that was not so open-ended and one that was going to have more uniformity of play, and yet retain the sense of wonder and imagination and creativity that the Dungeons & Dragons system, as a game form, had produced. So I have high hopes for Advanced D&D games in that respect. Unfortunately, it seems as if they're still being perverted, although not as badly.

I believe that the RPGA influence is going to help to raise the level of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons play by forcing a little more conformity. I don't mind creativity, I don't mind mutation, if it brings out better game play, and superior gaming · in general. But from everything that
I can see, all the changes that are made are usually foolish and meant to either baby players along or kill them off, one way or another. They're destructive, rather than creative.

Just think about some of the outstanding changes that were made in Dungeons & Dragons games, and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons games too, for that matter, and look at what their effects are. Consider the "double damage on a natural 20", which of course seldom went to the monsters, but only went to the players, therefore making it yet easier for the players to kill monsters.

Critical hits? Again, players never took critical hits, only monsters, for some reason , would take critical hits. The weapons expertise idea, that a player's chosen weapon ... he or she would do a lot better with it. And yet, monsters fighting with their natural abilities, fang and claw - who could be more expert than a tiger with its claws and teeth? - weren't getting any bonuses. The spell point system, which allowed magic-users to become veritable machine guns of spells without ever having to seriously consider what they were going to take and just shoot everything down, made the magic-user the only character worth playing.

Some of the proposed classes, such as the barbarian I've heard of and the mighty knight, and one or two others that I've heard of, create super-powerful characters who just can ... again, it was the only one worth being. Then you just go through and beat up on everything. The changes in the demi-human races create, again, super-powerful characters, so that everybody wants to be a dwarf, or an elf, or whatever it is, and nobody wants to be anything else, because it overbalances in favor. And generally these are done at the whim of a Dungeon Master, or from group pressure, to make a rather uninteresting campaign where everybody is one thing. These are usually the Monty Haul games.

On the other hand, you have the really silly monsters, or severe death traps for the DM who seems to be rather sadistic and just wants to proceed to kill all of his players regularly, in capricious ways, without giving them any chance whatsoever. That's also guaranteed to spoil a game.
Another article I enjoyed reading in Polyhedron #1 was about GenCon South. I had no idea there had been a convention for GenCon held down here. It appears Jacksonville used to be a quite the hotbed of table-top gaming activity here in the southeast. I never knew it until now.
Jacksonville Beach, Florida: On a mild weekend here in early February, over 350 hobby gamers descended on the Ramada Inn to play DUNGEONS & DRAGONS games, war games, board games, and many others. A highlight of the events here at the fifth annual GEN CON South game convention, held on the weekend of February 6-8 1981, was a large battle of miniature tanks on "The World's Largest SandTable"-the beach of the Atlantic Ocean!

Players maneuvered their forces in a large outdoor game of TRACT/CS (published by TSR Hobbies). The convention was run by the Cowford Dragoons, a local game club, and co-sponsored by TSR Hobbies, Inc. TSR presented over $300 in prizes to the winners of the ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Open Tournament, which drew over 200 players of all ages. Many playing aids for AD&D'" games were given away as prizes along with donations from other companies, including lead miniature figures from Grenadier Models and Minifigs, paint brushes from Polly-S, and thirteen RPGA'" Memberships.

A unique aspect of this convention was the extensive club participation. At most game conventions, individuals compete for points and prizes. Here in Florida, however, clubs attended and played as groups, closely watching the computer-assisted tallies of club points in each category (role playing games, war games, board games, and others). The rivalry was fierce, and cheers and groans were often heard as the "best overall club" totals changed at the completion of events. The clubs represented in the tournament included:

Angrenost
Arioch's Chosen
Auburn Fantasy Gamers
Berkely Games
Courts of Chaos
Cowford Dragoons
Crobie Droogs
Dragons Den
Fantasy Unlimited
Forest Park
Gold Coast Lancers
High Lords of Fantasy
Indialantic Toy Shoppe
Jacksonville Brotherhood of Thieves
Leviathan
MAGIC
NWF (Naples Wargame Federation)
Orange Park Wargamers
PP&P (Push, Pull , & Pivot)
Round Table Association
St. Lucie County Wargamers
Florida Sun Coast Strategists
Tampa Optics
U of Florida Simulated Combat Club
U of Miami ROTC
U of Central Florida, Orlando
U of South Carolina
Wardens of the Gem
Wasted Knights
“He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.” - Fellowship of the Ring, J.R.R. Tolkien

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Post June 12th, 2024, 1:04 pm

Necron 99 wrote: April 5th, 2024, 8:48 am I don't believe I've watch any of the documentaries or read any of the books that have come out, detailing gaming of yesteryear, although I know there are a few out there. I guess I'm always dubious of these projects because I don't know the folks putting them together and their actual level of knowledge, or lack thereof, of the facts. Good to know, though, thanks.
I didn’t learn as much about Gary’s life and history from TDinGB vs. from Secrets of Blackmoor (which I learned a lot from). Both were excellent documentaries, but I just had more familiarity with Gary’s life and history than I did with Dave’s.

Allan.
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